diff --git a/realm/lib/chat-db.hoon b/realm/lib/chat-db.hoon
index 7b2b88a..4908fe0 100644
--- a/realm/lib/chat-db.hoon
+++ b/realm/lib/chat-db.hoon
@@ -208,8 +208,8 @@
 ::
 :: MUST EXPLICITLY INCLUDE SELF, this function will not add self into peers list
 ++  create-path
-::chat-db &chat-db-action [%create-path [/example ~ %group *@da *@da ~ %host %.y *@dr *@da (some ['0x000386E3F7559d9B6a2F5c46B4aD1A9587D59Dc3' 'eth-mainnet' 'ERC721'])] ~[[~zod %host] [~bus %member]] 100 ~]
-  |=  [[row=path-row:sur peers=ship-roles:sur expected-msg-count=@ud t=(unit @da)] state=state-4 =bowl:gall]
+::chat-db &chat-db-action [%create-path [/example ~ %group *@da *@da ~ %host %.y *@dr *@da (some ['0x000386E3F7559d9B6a2F5c46B4aD1A9587D59Dc3' 'eth-mainnet' 'ERC721'])] ~[[~zod %host] [~bus %member]] %.n ~ ~]
+  |=  [[row=path-row:sur peers=ship-roles:sur pnm=? =message:sur t=(unit @da)] state=state-4 =bowl:gall]
   ^-  (quip card state-4)
 
   ?>  ?!((~(has by paths-table.state) path.row))  :: ensure the path doesn't already exist!!!
@@ -226,10 +226,13 @@
   =/  vent-path=path
     ?~  t  /chat-vent/(scot %da created-at.row)
     /chat-vent/(scot %da u.t)
+  =/  response
+    ?.  pnm  !>([%path row])
+    !>([%path-and-messages row message])
   =/  gives  :~
     [%give %fact [/db (weld /db/path path.row) ~] thechange]
     :: give vent response
-    [%give %fact ~[vent-path] chat-vent+!>([%path-and-count row expected-msg-count])]
+    [%give %fact ~[vent-path] chat-vent+response]
     [%give %kick ~[vent-path] ~]
   ==
   [gives state]
@@ -1062,11 +1065,14 @@
         %ack     s/%ack
         %msg     a+(turn message.chat-vent |=(m=msg-part:sur (messages-row [msg-id.m msg-part-id.m] m)))
         %path    (path-row path-row.chat-vent)
-        %path-and-count
-      =/  prj=json  (path-row path-row.chat-vent)
-      ?>  ?=([%o *] prj)
-      :-  %o
-      (~(put by p.prj) %msg-count (numb msg-count.chat-vent))
+        %path-and-messages
+      %-  pairs
+      :~  path+(path-row path-row.chat-vent)
+          :-  %messages
+          :-  %a
+          %+  turn  message.chat-vent
+          |=(m=msg-part:sur (messages-row [[msg-id.m msg-part-id.m] m]))
+      ==
       ==
     ::
     ++  time-bunt-null
diff --git a/realm/lib/realm-chat.hoon b/realm/lib/realm-chat.hoon
index 9f3d2dd..2118bed 100644
--- a/realm/lib/realm-chat.hoon
+++ b/realm/lib/realm-chat.hoon
@@ -166,7 +166,7 @@
 ++  create-path-db-poke
   |=  [=ship row=path-row:db peers=ship-roles:db]
   ^-  card
-  [%pass /dbpoke %agent [ship %chat-db] %poke %chat-db-action !>([%create-path row peers 0 ~])]
+  [%pass /dbpoke %agent [ship %chat-db] %poke %chat-db-action !>([%create-path row peers %.n ~ ~])]
 ::
 ++  create-path-bedrock-poke
   |=  [=ship row=path-row:db peers=ship-roles:db]
@@ -468,20 +468,20 @@
       (turn pathpeers |=(p=peer-row:db [patp.p role.p]))
     [ship.act %member]
 
-  =/  expected-msg-count=@ud
-    ?.  peers-get-backlog.pathrow  0
-    (scry-message-count-for-path path.act bowl)
-  ~&  >  "expected: {<expected-msg-count>}"
+  =/  initial-messages=message:db
+    ?.  peers-get-backlog.pathrow  ~
+    %+  turn
+      (scag 50 (scry-messages-for-path path.act our.bowl now.bowl))
+    |=([k=* v=msg-part:db] v)
+    
   =/  backlog-poke-cards=(list card)
     ?.  peers-get-backlog.pathrow  ~
-    ?.  (gth expected-msg-count 200)
-      (limo [(into-backlog-msg-poke (turn (scry-messages-for-path path.act our.bowl now.bowl) |=([k=uniq-id:db v=msg-part:db] v)) ship.act) ~])
-    =/  msgs  (scag 200 (scry-messages-for-path path.act our.bowl now.bowl))
+    :-  (into-backlog-msg-poke initial-messages ship.act)
+    ?:  (lte (scry-message-count-for-path path.act bowl) 50)  ~
     =/  tid   (cat 3 (spat path.act) ship.act)
     =/  start-args  [~ `tid byk.bowl(r da+now.bowl) %send-backlog !>(`[path.act ship.act])]
-    :-  (into-backlog-msg-poke (turn msgs |=([k=uniq-id:db v=msg-part:db] v)) ship.act)
-    :-  [%pass /thread/(scot %da now.bowl) %agent [our.bowl %spider] %poke %spider-start !>(start-args)]
-    ~
+    :_  ~
+    [%pass /thread/(scot %da now.bowl) %agent [our.bowl %spider] %poke %spider-start !>(start-args)]
 
   :: order matters here, for performance
   =/  cards=(list card)
@@ -489,7 +489,7 @@
     %+  weld
       ::  we poke the newly-added ship's db with a create-path,
       ::  since that will automatically handle them joining as a member
-      :-  [%pass /dbpoke %agent [ship.act %chat-db] %poke %chat-db-action !>([%create-path pathrow all-peers expected-msg-count `t.act])]
+      :-  [%pass /dbpoke %agent [ship.act %chat-db] %poke %chat-db-action !>([%create-path pathrow all-peers %.y initial-messages `t.act])]
       :: we poke all original peers db with add-peer (including ourselves)
       %+  turn
         pathpeers
diff --git a/realm/sur/chat-db.hoon b/realm/sur/chat-db.hoon
index 55c1e9a..bc92de2 100644
--- a/realm/sur/chat-db.hoon
+++ b/realm/sur/chat-db.hoon
@@ -107,7 +107,7 @@
 +$  ship-roles  (list [s=@p role=@tas])
 +$  action
   $%  
-      [%create-path =path-row peers=ship-roles expected-msg-count=@ud t=(unit @da)]
+      [%create-path =path-row peers=ship-roles pnm=? =message t=(unit @da)]
       [%edit-path =path metadata=(map cord cord) peers-get-backlog=? invites=@tas max-expires-at-duration=@dr]
       [%edit-path-pins =path =pins]
       [%leave-path =path]
@@ -157,7 +157,7 @@
 +$  chat-vent
   $%  [%msg =message]
       [%path =path-row]
-      [%path-and-count =path-row msg-count=@ud]
+      [%path-and-messages =path-row =message]
       [%ack ~]
   ==
 ::